Comments Elise Hayes says: I write medieval historicals, so setting is always a major issue for me. Even if I could afford the trip to England, the area I’m visiting might have been so different 800 years ago that I can’t count on what I see. Argh!!! Some things that help: Any other medievalists out there? What are your favorite resources?  Diana Layne says: ooh, I love medievals! We just went to Medieval Times for the first time last month. It was so much fun! Elise Hayes says: I haven’t been to Medieval Times yet and would love to go. Renaissance fairs are also always great. And, frankly, going camping (even though we have all sorts of modern, high-tech gear to make camping more comfortable, from cushy insulated mattress pads to gas stoves and lanters) is also a good way to remind yourself about the basics of a pit fire, the realities of smoke in your clothes (external clothing was virtually never washed in the medieval period, but smoke from the hearth fires both de-odorized them and helped keep away the bugs), and what it’s like to go to the bathroom in the middle of the night in the cold and without facilities. Medieval Time & Ren Faires always make me want to read fantasy novels. Medieval without all those pesky details. And with magic washrooms! Great question Vivi. My recent release, Obsessed By WIldfire, is set in Texas. I live in PA and even though I visited Texas a number of years ago, I confess I knew nothing about the climate at the time of the year for my setting, much less terrain, plants, trees, etc. You get the idea. I did research maps, state wide and very specific to the area where the ficitional town is located. I also researched plants, trees, farms, building, occupations, annual incomes, etc. etc. Then I asked a few people I knew on loops about their state. Did I get it all right? I only had one comment so far, from a reader, that it was interesting to read about her state through my eyes. Did it throw her off? NO. We will never know exactly how it is to live somewhere without doing so. But then, my prespective of where I live is a lot different than my neighbors. (Did you like how I got my title in there?) WINK.  Rita says: I do not like huge amounts of detail in any book I read. I do not go into detail. In a lecture Bob Mayer said.”The more details you give the more chances you have to get it wrong.” I took that to heart. Going lean like Di and Elise say is certainly my preference If I were to write about Alaska (which I would love to do) I would do tons of internet research and then ask someone, like you, if I have it correct. I would use the vastness and the silence of being in the wilderness alone. What the character would feel about it, enjoy, be afraid of. My oldest son spent a summer there working and fishing and he has some very good stories. Or perhaps the ‘feeling’ a local would get being inundated every summer by tourists. Like it or no? Would the character spend time talking to people from around the world or use back alleys to avoid them. Even get out of town. I think the trouble arises when we don’t even think to ask our source something and it sneaks through in our writing. It’s hard to realized all the assumptions you are making when they’re your own assumptions, you know?  Tamara Hogan says: Great questions, Vivi! When an author gets basic, known facts of a real-world location WRONG (without accommodating for it in some way), it definitely pulls me out of the story, and plants a seed of distrust in the author for the remainder of the book. This is another situation where the great advice I heard at a Jenny Crusie workshop really comes into play: Don’t reveal any detail you don’t have to reveal. The more specific you are revealing some aspects of setting, the more risk there is that you get something wrong. Choosing the RIGHT detail is important. It’s kinda funny – I can readily accept that an author might create a building or business that simply doesn’t exist on one of my hometown streets, for the sake of their story. But if that same author had their hero brake to a stop at a stoplight? WRONG. There are no stoplights in my hometown, just stop signs. This is where the details we choose to reveal become very, very important in terms of authenticity. If the hero had simply braked to a stop? No problem. (Don’t reveal any detail you don’t have to.) For me (paranormal chick), POV plays a major role in establishing a setting or a world. A local is going to perceive their hometown or home state much differently than someone visiting it for the for the first time. A person who crew up in a big city will notice different things about a small town and its people than someone who grew up in a small town, or THAT small town, would. This can be really fun to play with, and reveals a lot about the POV character. I can’t wait to see what others’ setting pet peeves are! The POV thing is key. Somehow I doubt Riley Jensen’s Melbourne is the same city I would see if I visited. I live in DC and let me tell you when I read Dan Brown’s latest book, with all it’s stupid errors about my town, it made me want to throw the darned thing across the room. His mistakes were huge, though — as in putting subway stops where there aren’t any. Elise Hayes says: We listen to audio books with my daughter when we’re in the car for an extended period of time. Lately, we’ve been listening to the Frog Princess series by E.D. Baker, which I love, love, LOVE. In the second book, the heroine touches a manta ray and describes it as leathery. I know that’s what the rays *look* like, but it so happens that I’ve touched rays before–and it’s like stroking incredibly soft, incredibly deep velvet. I do wish that detail were right… I will say, however, that’s the only complaint I have about the series, so if you’ve got a young daughter or granddaughter and you’re going on a road trip, get these audio books! They’ll keep everyone entertained and happy for hours. Great question Viv!  Liz Talley says: Me,too! Who cares that they didn’t make curd from lemons that year because there was a blight in Spain and no one could get lemons, so there was no way the heroine could have spread lemon curd on her biscuit? Snort. Please. Get a life. Of course, major things wrong is one thing, but if it so piddly as above, just bite your tongue and enjoy the STORY. I like the fictional small town. And with the magic of global warming, you can practically have it snow in summer if you’d like. Liz Talley says: Me, too. That’s why mine is fictional in Vegas Two-Step (like how I got that in, Autumn?). I live in the Arla-Tex, which means I can be in Texas in 20 minutes and Arkansas in 30. It basically gives me three different states to set stories in. ANd then I lived in South Carolina and New Orleans, so those are in my back pocket. My first book opens in Vegas. I’ve actually never been, but I don’t think there’s too much wrong I can get about it (though I’m sure I screwed up something). I made up fake bars and fake eating dives. I acknowledged some of the real places. I’m sure someone will tell me what I got wrong. There is always someone waiting to wag her finger. I dont’ mind that everybody writes about Jackson Square and Cafe DuMonde in New Orleans – that’s what everybody pictures about New Orleans. So you can tell if the writer just visited or if the writer has lived there before. But it doesn’t bother me because people want to read about gumbo and swamps in Louisiana. Case in point, I’m making jambalaya now for our conference. Giving the people what they want. Me too. My setting is a small, fictional town named Last Chance, which is located in the midlands of South Carolina. The town is actually based on a real place where I spent my summers back in the 1950s and 1960s. But aside from climate and accent, the place is a total fiction — and way over the top. For instance, Last Chance’s main claim to fame is the 18-hole mini-golf place right outside of town dedicated to the almighty and called Gofling for God. It’s where the local kids go to simultaneously brush up on their short game and their Bible. For me, this setting is everything, because Last Chance is like a continuing character in the series and, quite frankly, it was the setting (and the quirky characters that live there) that sold the series. On the one hand this makes it easy, because it’s a made-up place I don’t have to worry about getting some fact wrong. On the other hand, when you create a fictious place that is that important to a story, you have to do a lot of worldbuilding. And if you don’t keep your world building facts straight, readers will give you grief. I know, I have a kid who found every internal inconsistency in every Harry Potter novel. So I have spreadsheets, maps, time lines, a guidebook to Last Chance, detailed descriptions of every business on the main drag, and a full description of every one of the eighteen holes at Gofling for God. A lot of this detaili doesn’t even make it into the stories, but I have to know these things and keep them straight. Hopefully I can put some of this background to use on my webpage, now that the series has been sold. . . I have a question for pantsters. I’m a plotter by nature. I don’t do detailed spreadsheets and diagrams, but I do have an outline based on the three act structure that stays pretty consistent while I write. (People who keep an outline and turning points in your head, I count you as plotters!!!) I’m mentoring a pantster right now. Her main concern is being able to create strong enough conflict to sustain a book. I’m working with her on GMC and really helping her dig into her characters to use them to drive her plot. I hear from pantsters that once they’ve figured all the details out, the story is just not exciting for them anymore and they don’t want to write it. I respect that. So I’d love suggestions from pantsters on how to guide my mentee through building sustainable conflict without plotting out the story beforehand. Thanks much for any feedback. I want to do a good job at this. Oh Jeannie. I wish I had a good answer but had to comment anyway. Sorry for the longish post. I started as a totally organic writer. I was thrilled to discover each scene unfold as it came into my head without pre-planning. While totally fun. The volume of rewriting I end up having to do because I write myself into blind alleys, or I loose the conflict or the plot just sucks….not so much fun. And totally not efficient toward producing the end goal of a book that I can shop around. So now my C.P. helps me brainstorm and organically plot the book and then I write. I have note cards. I reached the point where I either wrote the book and then had to go back making note cards on all the changes– to make the plot work and tighten the conflict– or I just go ahead and do them first. It became easier to do them first. My training wheels are I make a scaffolding of cards. I continue with the scaffolding cards start to finish. So I know what needs to happen and where it needs to occur. Black Moment, Make the Cry. That kinda stuff. The scaffolding set of cards don’t change that much and can be used from book to book. (training wheels) Then I can insert cards for each scene, with a comment or two about what has to happen in that scene or how I see the plot playing out. Yes I’m trying to think GMC stuff. grrrr In the example above, first scene — Isobeau is taken by the Queen’s guard. Black moment — the note says — Kiernan rejects Isobeau to force her to return to her world to keep her safe. She is destroyed emotionally, on her return through dimensions she injures herself. In being treated for injury she learns she is pregnant. So, if this makes any sense… I can plan, plot and have a course to follow without sucking all the creative energy out of me. The scenes can unfold organically but I have a compass to keep from rewriting the dang book four times. And sometimes I can’t see the whole thing totally clear all the way through. There is one card just before the black moment card that says “The worst turn so far. New evidence comes to light that changes everything.” My only guidance is I know there has to be some threat to Izzy and perhaps the kingdom so that Kiernan decides he has to send her back to keep her safe. He has to sacrifice his feelings for her greater good. I don’t know what that threat will be. That is yet to be given to me. I hope this helps. There are a lot of authors that I admire that are meticulous plotters. I can’t do that. I started on the journey very Organic. But after finishing my third book… The first two are under the bed because they were so organic they can’t hold together. The third I wrote organically with a little bit of planning. I ended up having to make the cards after it was written with notes on everything that needed to be fixed. Then I had to rewrite the book after I wrote it to pull the plot threads together and make it consistent. That was so frustrating. Now I’m trying this to see if this system will make the pathway smoother. Hope this helps Rita says: I think you are right in getting her to dig into her characters. Knowing everything about them lets you know what they will do in a situation that pops up when writing ‘organically’. Okay, I’m sorry to bring this back to the other topic for a sec, but this is such a perfect example of the things we don’t even realize would throw a local out of the story. You *can’t* drive to Barrow, AK – with or without a map. There are no roads to Barrow. None. So if I saw this in a book, I would sit there for fifteen minutes wondering if the author was trying to be funny or if they really don’t know. It would completely eject me from the story. Rita says: Gotcha! Rita says: Duh! meant can only be reached by boat or plane no roads. having one of those days that I found the cheese and pretzels I bought this morning in the freezer. Oh yes, I forgot that part. I’ve started doing that too. I try writing the blip. I can’t really call it a synposis. Yes, I want the story to ‘flow magically’ but it has been the source of much head banging…as Rita knows about me. lol. I have to admit that I don’t often know my characters really well until about 10,000 to 15,000 words. So adjustments have to be made. I just got so tired of writing my heart out and at the end it really wasn’t worth poo because of major plot wholes, lack of conflict. I have pretty good characters and dialogue. Continuity was an issue because at like, oh say 65,000 words I learned XYZ and had to go back and try to weave that knowledge in earlier. grrr. Or worse…pull a thread out that wasn’t working. It permeates everything. Case in point…my current WIP. I didn’t know what my conflict would be until I began writing it. I was way into my first draft – getting to know my hero and heroine before I decided on the internal conflict, and then went back to fill that in. Plus there is a little side of murder, mystery, and mayhem to move the story along. Honestly, I have tried to plot stories out with formula worksheets I’ve gotten from workshops, but life and stories don’t unfold like a worksheet and neither does my writing. It’s art. Am I right? And mine is a little abstract. Liz Talley says: Yeah, I’m like this. I start with a scene or idea and find out what really happens along the way. Sometimes it can backfire when the story evolves and I have to go back and make the beginning match the conflict that arose within the middle. But I will say that I’ve sat down and written my GMC for each character and a synopsis as a kind of guide. Scenes evolve to move my characters toward their goals…or rather my goals for them. Sometimes they just have to shut up and do what the hell I tell them to. And sometimes they return the favor. I’d recommend her starting with a GMC and then after she writes each scene, she questions herself (or you do) to make sure it moves the character towards the ultimate goal. I’d say yeah, Kelly. That’s in part me too. I take awhile to figure out the characters. I’ll have a scene in my head. Once I get it down on paper though, I’m trying to think through it in a pseudo plot philosophy. I continue writing fractured scenes as they nag me. Like on Izzy’s story. I wrote the opening scene. Then, the second scene was the black moment because I saw it all unfolding in my mind. Then I went back and wrote something else. Writing is kinda like kids. At first, I expected each experience to be the same. Each book has evolved differently. While, I wouldn’t call what I do “formula” driven…I think there has to be some kind of structure to what will happen. I have turning points for suspense, others for the romance, some for the paranormal. They might not be in the same places when I’m done but in the end they all have to be there somewhere, scattered around. Does that make any sense? Isn’t that what yall do? I’m not a pantser (nor a plotter, really), but I totally agree about the structure, Eden. I want to have a general idea of the “shape” of a book I’m writing, even if I don’t know the specifics before it ends up on the page. Sometimes my notes are things like “Ominous Warning Ignored; Emotional Connection Moment; Big Bad threatens; Hiatus to Get It On; Big Bad Defeated!; HEA!”  Christine Ashworth says: Encourage her to just finish the book. If nothing else, have her plan five major plot twists, and where they need to be page-wise. She may find a different plot twist than the one she had planned, but at least it’ll be in the right spot more or less. Tightening comes in the rewrites, for me at least. Things come out at the end that you need to put in the beginning and the middle. You see where you stray from the story. Sometimes, you don’t know what the story is until it’s done, and you realize a third needs to be trimmed because – ta da – it’s a story on its own. But if I’ve got my major plot points down, the rest is nothing but discovery. I like what Rita said. I go lean too. I have based my series of WIP’s on a small town in north Florida. I don’t give the real name. The town was a starting place and then so much of the references are fictional. Not like Forks you know. LOL, Eden! Until Twilight I had no idea Forks was so exotic! Ha. I had not idea Forks existed. Now the town is inundated with fans. I wonder if they wish she had made up a town instead of picking theirs? Okay, I read a book by a multi-published author. The Heroine was a lawyer. The premise was so ridiculous and illogical from a legal standpoint, but it didn’t stop me from enjoying her voice. I gave it to a paralegal gal I know and she confirmed the contrived legal aspect of the plot. I just shrug. It’s fiction. But you were aware of the legal ridiculousness, right? So in some way it did jar you out of the story? Yes, and a year later, I’m still talking about it…thinking about it. I’m wondering if the book would be forgotten if it hadn’t been so, for lack of a better term, stupid. Although I doubt the author would like to be remembered for having a stupid premis. I tend to set most of my stories in fictional small towns in Indiana (that happen to be based on real places, but that’s another story!). My lone single-title, however, is set in Chicago, with a two-week jaunt to Alaska … so what do I need to know about Alaska (besides the fact that they, too, have summer temperatures)? It isn’t that I think there are certain general things everyone should know about Alaska, but more about the fact that it is so hard to know which details you’re muffing that a local would react to. Well, my hero and heroine go in late June/early July. I can’t remember where I had them fly in — probably Anchorage — and then a commuter flight to Fairbanks, visit to Denali (and near encounter with some bears), a stop in Sitka (just mentioned in passing) and some time in Anchorage before flying home. They take a kayak tour and do a lot of eating … it’s at the hotel in Fairbanks that they finally get it on. That, of course, leads me to fulfill my first reader’s suggestion for “more sex, less food.” Do you have access to my e-mail? I see it in the “submit comment” field … Arlene – My first thought is make sure it isn’t dark out while they’re getting it on! Around solstice, Fbks will have upwards of 21hrs of sunlight each day. And those bears better be brown, baby (or possibly black). Absolutely no polar bears in the park! You can email me directly at vivi@viviandrews.com if you want more specifics. I love that comment – more sex, less food. LOL. My WIP has a lot of eating going on. What can you do if you’re not having sex? Comfort food. Or maybe I have a love affair with food. It’s beautiful, satisfying, sexy. Most of my stories feature a racetrack so I make sure to use tracks I’ve spent a lot of time at. When I forget little details about the types of barns or bedding, I’ll dig out pictures. I always take loads of pictures simply for that purpose. I’m not sure if anyone cares about stuff like that, but just in case I want it right. Otherwise, I’ll make it fictional. If I base my towns on real places, I usually name them something else, just to give myself a cushion. For instance, my current series is set in a small town in Tennessee. I grew up near it, but I named it something else, because there are certain things about it I didn’t want to stick to. The only place this hasn’t worked is Las Vegas. In one of my books, the couple take a trip to Las Vegas. I asked a friend about certain aspects I ran into, looked up lots of pics, and researched a particular restaurant they went to. Otherwise, I kept it vague. That being said, I’ve heard plenty of authors say that there is always someone nitpicky enough to email them to let them know what they got wrong, so I’ll probably never please everyone. Jeannie, I have several panster friends who start their books out with characters, conflict, and major turning points. Everything else is subject to change. Actually, so are the major turning points, but without the characters and conflict, you have no idea where you are going. I’d love to be one of these people who trust their subconscious enough to be able to let it plot the book for them and let it all flow out naturally, but it isn’t happening for me. My current wip has an 18 page outline. Overkill, I know, but it works for me. I always love finding other plotters, because my local RWA group is one big group of pansters! I gave a presentation once on storyboarding, and you should have seen the dumbfounded looks. Now I know better.  Darynda Jones says: I’m sorry I’m late to this! What a wonderful discussion. Thanks to everyone who commented. I always learn stuff!
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Depends where your characters are going (Kenai, Fairbanks, Southeast, Nome… all very different climates), what time of year, what they’re doing… the devil’s in the details. But if you have specific AK questions, I’m totally willing to answer or put you in touch with the AKRWA chapter if you’d rather have a group of eager romance writers at your disposal.
Hi, Vivi,
yes, I go lean. Maybe I shouldn’t. For big cities, at least, there’s so much research available on the internet, as well as virtual panoramic views, and yet, I’m worried I’ll miss some local nuance, something exclusive to the area where I’ve set the book. I live in a very clique-ish small town and outsiders wouldn’t know the peculiarities unless they lived here or found a chatty native, and even so the chatty native might not realize the town is a little oddball.
I know I can still be surprised when I discover a difference, “you mean other people don’t…”
And so if I use a real city, I go lean. Or in my next WIP I’m making up a small town loosely based on mine. (Names and places will be altered to protect the guilty, of course.
)
Oh, one day I’d love, love, love to visit Alaska, even at times dream of living a hermit’s life there, no one to disturb me and my writing….if it wasn’t so danged cold there!
I go lean, too, when I can’t supply details that I think are accurate. I regret that, though, because I LOVE those peculiarities of a neighborhood, love feeling it through the soles of my shoes when I’m reading.
I’m thinking about writing urban fantasy next–and setting it in Paris, because I lived there for a few years (eons ago, but I still remember the FEEL of it). I could really immerse my readers in Paris, in all sorts of fun ways.
Elise, such a good point about the FEEL of a city – especially one as distinctive as Paris. Some things you just can’t get from online research.